Is normal mode really normal mode?(Versus)

[AnimeZer0]

I mean, it's almost impossible to beat the CPU, I've done about 30 matches with the bot now, Lv 3 Arche vs Lv 3 Arche, both 100% and on normal.
But is it really normal?

When i try the downwards slash move i get hit no matter what, like it's programmed to hit me without missing, even on normal.
If i block attacks for some reason i always get kicked in the face no matter where the bot stands and the bot does it like it's nothing, the same goes for the downwards slash, the bot spams it like it's a simple thing to hit with, even if the bot just jumps like 1 meter, i get hit with the downwards slash.

Is this seriously normal? I'd expect this to be the hardest difficulty, oh and funny thing is the hardest difficulty i get the same results as on normal, like it's just the exact same but another name given.

I beat the bot once, just once on my third try, how i did that? no idea! i don't know how the hell i managed to do that but it feels good to have it beaten at least once on normal, ever since i haven't beaten it a single time!

This is ridiculous..

Edit:
I will burn this picture in my mind!

Edit2:
I think i found a swordplay style that fits me: defensive, i block and counter using some good hits, seems to work really good, before i began doing that i was a bit more aggressive, but defensive seems to fit me more.
Another Victory!

Edit3:
Heres a video of me beating Arche on normal ^_^

[Exodee]

I think the AI is more aggressive/quicker on higher difficulties, though I agree that "Normal" Arche is way too fast at the moment.
I guess versus mode is kinda like fighting the AI in fighting games in that regard; They can execute moves instantly and read your inputs / instantly take advantage of your mistakes, so you pretty much have to cheese the AI to win.
_{Or just use Sana and do sleep + the ice shard spell over and over again.}

But yeah, playing defensively and counterattacking works fairly well. Those unblockable kicks and downward stabs always seem to get me though, but they work pretty well against the AI as well. 

[AnimeZer0]

I'm well capable of beating arche with arche on normal (lv 3 and lv 7, haven't unlocked other lvls yet)
And i still think the bot is quite overpowered for a normal difficulty, the bot still executes the downstab as if it's nothing while im having trouble with it in such a situation, i barely even have time to react for a counter while the bot hits me instantly the moment i jump.

[David J Prokopetz]

I guess versus mode is kinda like fighting the AI in fighting games in that regard; They can execute moves instantly and read your inputs / instantly take advantage of your mistakes, so you pretty much have to cheese the AI to win.

I think there are a couple of key differences in play:

1. Arche has no charge moves, and very few roll moves. Most of her attacks are of the "tap direction + attack" variety, so the AI doesn't have any particular execution advantage over a human player.

2. The notion of "reading your inputs" requires some unpacking. The AI isn't a little man inside your computer watching the action on a screen - the game-state, including the state of the controller, is all it has to go on. The question isn't whether the AI "reads your inputs", but whether it reacts to those inputs more quickly than a human opponent plausibly could. Mostly, this means: does the AI start to react before your attack animation begins? As far as I can see, this isn't the case. Even at the hardest difficulty levels, the AI isn't pre-empting your attacks; mostly, it just parries or dodges in response to being approached. You can fairly easily fake it into dodging a nonexistent attack by approaching it as though you're going to attack, but not actually hitting the attack button - which is the sort of thing you'd expect to work against a human opponent, too.

[Exodee]

I think there are a couple of key differences in play:

Aye, it might not've been the best example, but it was the closest thing I could think of. Hence the "kinda".

The AI does pretty much react to a player's inputs instantly however. This is quite evident when you're using Stella and you use a basic ranged attack. Most enemies just hop over your attack with ease - even when they're the ones approaching you and you're standing still / waiting until they're at point blank range. Of course, all this means is that you have to "fake out" like you said, or use attacks the AI simply can't dodge.

As for tricks against the AI...
I'm quite fond of doing "strafing runs" with Arche or Stella. That is, when moving forward in the air, do a downward attack and then keep moving forward. It's unblockable and most enemies can't seem to dodge or counter it and you can sort of slide over the ground hitting everything in your path. Afterwards, get some distance and repeat.
This trick made Stella's solo section quite a breeze.
Getting some distance from Arche AI might be a bit more difficult though, since the fighting stage is rather small and she's as fast as you are. A backward stab usually works, if she's pursuing you.

[David J Prokopetz]

The AI does pretty much react to a player's inputs instantly however. This is quite evident when you're using Stella and you use a basic ranged attack. Most enemies just hop over your attack with ease - even when they're the ones approaching you and you're standing still / waiting until they're at point blank range.

Stella telegraphs her basic ranged attack with a little gesture a moment before the attack's hit-box actually comes out, so that one doesn't bother me - a human opponent could see it coming just as easily.

[Exodee]

Stella telegraphs her basic ranged attack with a little gesture a moment before the attack's hit-box actually comes out, so that one doesn't bother me - a human opponent could see it coming just as easily.

With the downward attack, that gesture takes literally a split second though... I sure as hell wouldn't be able to dodge that. But then again, I always abuse their jumps by following up with an upward attack anyway.

Have you tried Versus mode by the way? It sounds like you're pretty good at the game, so some pointers against AI Arche would be welcome. 

[changtau2005]

Playing low level Arche:

Arche doesn't have interesting moves at low levels. Just make sure to block the AI's normal attack and cartwheel / roll away if she goes airborne. A battle of attrition and a test of reflexes basically.

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Playing high level Arche (lv16-23):

Since this is a 1 v 1 (or even a 1 v 2) fight, moves such as Knight's Thrust (↓ + X) are not as useful simply because there's not as many targets.
Arche's defining characteristic is her high mobility on the ground, so abuse it - Move quickly or initiate by using leaping slash (↑ + → + X, unblockable) if you want to end up behind the AI, or jumpkick (→ + ↑ + X) if you want to bounce right back to where you are. If you are already close to the AI, execute wheel slash (→ + ↓ + X) to end up behind her and guard immediately. If she attacks, block it, Snap Slash (← + X) if you need to and lead into one combo, then disengage with leaping slash, finish with a guard, and wait for a chance to repeat. If the AI jumps, cartwheel back and initiate again. Don't jump into the air unless you have to because the AI will take advantage of your predictable trajectory, but if you ever do, try to land near the AI and execute Full Moon (Air + ↑ + X) when you're near but chances are you'll get combo-ed. Downstab (air + ↓ + X) is not recommended as its recovery period is way too long for an opponent this fast, and the hitbox too small.

I don't know if this happens to anybody else, but I tend to miss the timing for Snap Slash (← / → + X) so Arche ends up hitting nothing and takes a hit right in the back. It helps a ton to always, always guard beforehand so that doesn't happen, and this applies in the story as well, against kobolds, cocorats, and the harder myconids especially.

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Playing Sana:
Before the battle starts, Sana automatically casts Shield.

Always keep your best shield up - if you lose it the fight is already over. Priority of spells is
1. Shield. If it's flashing, stand on the spot and re-cast ASAP even if you're being attacked.
2. Heal if your HP is below 50% or by common sense
3. Sleep, if you have it
4. Damage spell. Best is Water Blast, other than that you only have Diamond Dust I / II

That's it. Sana vs Arche is the easiest match-up IMHO, as if your sleep takes effect, you can fully re-shield, heal, and cast a single Water Blast to win you the battle right there. Even if you don't have sleep, Diamond Dust has a ridiculously large AOE so hitting AI Arche is pretty much guaranteed.

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Playing Stella:
Before the battle, Stella automatically casts Blade.

Like in Sana's case, always keep Blade up - if you lose it the fight is over. Actually if you let your firewall go down, against high-level AI the fight is usually over as well.
Immediately cast firewall at the beginning, then Cerberus if you have it. Alternate between Firewall -> Spell slot -> Firewall -> Spell slot -> Firewall -> Blade; and keep walking towards AI Arche to corner her against the wall, because if she takes the full duration of a single inferno spell you win the game. As for which spells to cast between firewalls, re-cast Cerberus if it dies, life force if you desperately need the healing, otherwise either inferno or explosion depending on whether Stella has the levels to cast the spell. This fight will be very brief since either party will defeat the other in no time if one messes up.

If AI Arche ever manages to get past your firewall it quickly gets hard to maintain control of the flow. Leap back (↓ + →) if you can and let Blade push her back a bit, jump into the air and immediately Firewall -> Blade (if expiring) -> damage spell / firewall. Chaser works very well if you want AI Arche to maintain distance as she will attempt to dodge all those homing projectiles - once she does that, land an Explosion. Explosion or inferno gives very good (but brief) cover as well if you are ever in a position to move inside the AOE since the AI avoids it like the plague.

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Playing Chiffon:



Haha, I wish... Maybe if Mr K. Kitahara returns to Lizsoft some day

[Exodee]

Awesome stuff

Thanks, that was really helpful!
I haven't unlocked high-level Arche yet (almost there), but I always tend to make small mistakes which means the AI wins through attrition against me. Maybe it'll be easier once I unlock some more moves. (how did you do those arrow symbols btw? )

But yeah, playing as Sana seems quite a bit easier (but less fun) because of her debuffs and such. Thankfully, the spellcaster AI isn't nearly as good.

[changtau2005]

You can get those arrows from any unicode character table (or copy them from existing posts). If you want it fast just, enter Wikipedia's editor and look under special characters. Don't save the page after of course.

Correction for previous post: If Stella has Cerberus, she will cast that instead of Blade before the battle, so first thing is firewall -> Blade instead of firewall -> Cerberus specifically for this case.

Fwoo!