:( You guys got leaked. Early figures inside.

[coolnspicy]

Hot topic!

I've cut my long post on piracy and what's really being sold as, well, it wasn't very good. I was trying to argue that CF is selling goodwill and their distributors sell access, but I don't think I made it very clear, given BR's response. I'll make a decent job of a writeup on my opinions on this at some point, I suppose. In the meantime, I'll spare anyone on the thread the horror of reading what was here! This isn't really the place for a proper debate on this anyway.

As you were, gentlemen.

[BlondRobin]

As you were, gentlemen.

I literally have no idea what you're trying to say here. You claim it's about price and access and then talk about all the reasons you don't pirate but fail to justify why price and access being poor gives you the right to a work for free. Price isn't magically decided, it's based on what you have to make to be profitable enough to pay the bills, especially for indie games, and access more often than not is decided by the large companies distributing, not the developers who'd love to give great access to everyone. Companies are not deciding to give poor price or access just because they're comic-book evil and like suffering or are greedy pigs (well, not always) and regardless, that's a reason to stay away but does not justify getting their work for free.

So no, you haven't given any reasons why piracy is acceptable moral behavior. You have earned a free one-day ban for admitting to software piracy, however. Congratulations.

[xkcdfan]

As an addendum to my previous post (and then you can go back to your debate about the ethics and morality of pirating):

THETA's release was apparently missing files. Some people reported that it tripped their virus scanners. Others said it was a false positive. I'd guess it was probably the latter, but I have no way of knowing for sure. Another group, TiNYiSO, released a version that had a better reception. Combined downloads for both are near 700.

Given all the confusion, I'm feeling rather smug about waiting on my preorder.

[Anonatron]

Gabe Newell said:

"Valve Corporation President Gabe Newell also stated "most DRM strategies are just dumb" because they only decrease the value of a game in the consumer's eyes. Newell's suggests pairing DRM with "[creating] greater value for customers through service value"

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management#Controversy

And so he has spoken, and so it shall be. Amen!

As you were, gentlemen.

Price isn't magically decided, it's based on what you have to make to be profitable enough to pay the bills, especially for indie games

Which is the biggest reason pirating indie games is less ethical than pirating games by, say, Kotickvision.

and access more often than not is decided by the large companies distributing, not the developers who'd love to give great access to everyone.

And here we have the problem with our society, the core problem. Developers are artists, and the best artists don't do it for the money or the fame, they do it because it's what they'd love to do. You'd love to give great access, but then the publisher would throw a hissy fit and pull the money card, then getting to call the shots.

Companies are not deciding to give poor price or access just because they're comic-book evil and like suffering or are greedy pigs (well, not always)

You mean like Activision and Bobby Kotick?

and regardless, that's a reason to stay away but does not justify getting their work for free.

I'm curious. How would you feel if someone pirated your game, then sent a $20 check to your office to be distributed to your choosing. In this scenario, "your" is the developer, not you individually.

As an addendum to my previous post (and then you can go back to your debate about the ethics and morality of pirating):

THETA's release was apparently missing files. Some people reported that it tripped their virus scanners. Others said it was a false positive. I'd guess it was probably the latter, but I have no way of knowing for sure. Another group, TiNYiSO, released a version that had a better reception. Combined downloads for both are near 700.

Given all the confusion, I'm feeling rather smug about waiting on my preorder.

Clearly you're an evil, evil, person and need to be fined millions of dollars for even being part of a private tracker.

[BlondRobin]

I'm curious. How would you feel if someone pirated your game, then sent a $20 check to your office to be distributed to your choosing. In this scenario, "your" is the developer, not you individually.

Well, if they gave it to the developer, I would be sad, because the developer would be EGS and I guess he decided we don't deserve any money. 

Jokes aside, I'd probably shrug and divide it up according to our distribution deal with EGS. It's a weird way of doing things, but if someone out there decided they had to have the game, and felt obligated to pay, but didn't want to use any established distribution routes. Of course, as we don't have an office, this is a bit academic.

By the same token, I'd also shrug and not care if someone told me they pirated our game because, say, they were literally living in some country where $20 is an immense amount of money. Despite my above argument, I have no stance on piracy as a moral behavior; mostly because piracy and morality are too complex, and are highly situational re: reasoning, etc.

However, I went to college with someone who went to national debates. I can smell a self-serving defense a mile away and I'm not interested in listening. If you want to tell me you pirated Recettear because you didn't think it was worth it, or you'd rather get something else with your $20, or whatever, fine- I'll shrug and walk away. Pirates, by and large, were never customers, and there's no reason to get pissed off over people who weren't going to buy it anyway. We didn't lose anything.

However, if you're going to lie to me and try to defend your actions with some flimsy defense, that will get me angry, because I don't like deception, even self-deception.

(NOTE: THE ABOVE IS THE OPINION OF THIS WRITER, AND NOT OF CARPE FULGUR. WE HERE AT CARPE FULGUR HATE PIRATES AND ARE PLANNING TO RID THE WORLD OF THEM WITH A SUPER-LASER.)

[nerka]

You wouldn't kick a puppy, would you?

Oh yes i would... don't let their looks decive you, those are actually very deadly creatures

[Anonatron]

I'm curious. How would you feel if someone pirated your game, then sent a $20 check to your office to be distributed to your choosing. In this scenario, "your" is the developer, not you individually.

Well, if they gave it to the developer, I would be sad, because the developer would be EGS and I guess he decided we don't deserve any money.  

Jokes aside, I'd probably shrug and divide it up according to our distribution deal with EGS. It's a weird way of doing things, but if someone out there decided they had to have the game, and felt obligated to pay, but didn't want to use any established distribution routes. Of course, as we don't have an office, this is a bit academic.

By the same token, I'd also shrug and not care if someone told me they pirated our game because, say, they were literally living in some country where $20 is an immense amount of money. Despite my above argument, I have no stance on piracy as a moral behavior; mostly because piracy and morality are too complex, and are highly situational re: reasoning, etc.

However, I went to college with someone who went to national debates. I can smell a self-serving defense a mile away and I'm not interested in listening. If you want to tell me you pirated Recettear because you didn't think it was worth it, or you'd rather get something else with your $20, or whatever, fine- I'll shrug and walk away. Pirates, by and large, were never customers, and there's no reason to get pissed off over people who weren't going to buy it anyway. We didn't lose anything.

However, if you're going to lie to me and try to defend your actions with some flimsy defense, that will get me angry, because I don't like deception, even self-deception.

(NOTE: THE ABOVE IS THE OPINION OF THIS WRITER, AND NOT OF CARPE FULGUR. WE HERE AT CARPE FULGUR HATE PIRATES AND ARE PLANNING TO RID THE WORLD OF THEM WITH A SUPER-LASER.)

Actually, I haven't even played your game. I've heard tons about it on my normal haunts, and I intend to download the demo eventually, but I'm currently in a beta for a game, and come monday night I don't plan to log on my computer for like a week, so I just haven't gotten around to downloading it.

Why am I here you may ask? Someone linked the other admins response where he said that those past 5 hours had been their best sales period, and I couldn't pass up the opportunity to respond to someone with some brains for once. The result discussion on piracy and morality was just a bonus.

PS: The $20 questions was because I currently boycott activision games, but if the time ever came up where they released a game that was so good I just had to buy it, I'd pirate it and then mail the cash to the developer with a big red colored letter saying "Do what you want, as long as activision get's not a penny!"

[Kriby]

WE HERE AT CARPE FULGUR HATE PIRATES AND ARE PLANNING TO RID THE WORLD OF THEM WITH A SUPER-LASER.)

All the bacon in the world couldn't save you now..

[BlondRobin]

Actually, I haven't even played your game. I've heard tons about it on my normal haunts, and I intend to download the demo eventually, but I'm currently in a beta for a game, and come monday night I don't plan to log on my computer for like a week, so I just haven't gotten around to downloading it.

Actually, most of those comments weren't directed at you. I didn't think you'd pirated our game, just that you were angry at Activision (which is pretty reasonable, recent events considered.) Sorry if that got a bit confused.

[Anonatron]

Actually, I haven't even played your game. I've heard tons about it on my normal haunts, and I intend to download the demo eventually, but I'm currently in a beta for a game, and come monday night I don't plan to log on my computer for like a week, so I just haven't gotten around to downloading it.

Actually, most of those comments weren't directed at you. I didn't think you'd pirated our game, just that you were angry at Activision (which is pretty reasonable, recent events considered.) Sorry if that got a bit confused.

My bad.

[NotVeryNice]

First off, I was naughty and didn't listen to Tear's suggestion to buy the game before getting it. But don't kill me yet! I'm planning to correct that.
Does it make any difference choosing Gamersgate or Impulse for the purchase? I.e. does one of them give you (the publishers) more of the money spent?

[Pocket Nerd]

And here we have the problem with our society, the core problem. Developers are artists, and the best artists don't do it for the money or the fame, they do it because it's what they'd love to do. You'd love to give great access, but then the publisher would throw a hissy fit and pull the money card, then getting to call the shots.

Yet even the best artists have to make money. Sure, art for the sake of art is great, but so is eating for the sake of not starving to death.

That's always one of the weirdest parts of piracy discussions, when somebody breathlessly recounts his shock and horror on the day when he discovered people want to be paid for the games (or music, or movies, or books) they create, and how on that day he swore never again to pay for any kind of art... because, after all, the Real True Artists™ will happily live in a dumpster behind McDonald's as long as they know somebody is enjoying the Real True Art™ they created. Expecting fair compensation for the product of your intellectual labor marks you as not a Real True Artist™ and therefore unworthy of being paid for your work anyway.

This is an oddly un-self-aware attitude, as I'm fairly willing to bet most people making this argument have jobs for which they expect to be paid; sure, they probably take some pride in what they do, but at the end of the day they need money, just like everybody else.

[Pocket Nerd]

I can smell a self-serving defense a mile away and I'm not interested in listening.

You, sir, win ten internets for this quotation.

[BlondRobin]

First off, I was naughty and didn't listen to Tear's suggestion to buy the game before getting it. But don't kill me yet! I'm planning to correct that.
Does it make any difference choosing Gamersgate or Impulse for the purchase? I.e. does one of them give you (the publishers) more of the money spent?

Nope, go ahead and pick whatever distributor you want.

Also, I'm gonna go ahead and let this one slip, but please don't openly admit to piracy. That's all we ask, so that we don't get angry glares from other people and organizations.

[Anonatron]

And here we have the problem with our society, the core problem. Developers are artists, and the best artists don't do it for the money or the fame, they do it because it's what they'd love to do. You'd love to give great access, but then the publisher would throw a hissy fit and pull the money card, then getting to call the shots.

Yet even the best artists have to make money. Sure, art for the sake of art is great, but so is eating for the sake of not starving to death.

That's always one of the weirdest parts of piracy discussions, when somebody breathlessly recounts his shock and horror on the day when he discovered people want to be paid for the games (or music, or movies, or books) they create, and how on that day he swore never again to pay for any kind of art... because, after all, the Real True Artists™ will happily live in a dumpster behind McDonald's as long as they know somebody is enjoying the Real True Art™ they created. Expecting fair compensation for the product of your intellectual labor marks you as not a Real True Artist™ and therefore unworthy of being paid for your work anyway.

This is an oddly un-self-aware attitude, as I'm fairly willing to bet most people making this argument have jobs for which they expect to be paid; sure, they probably take some pride in what they do, but at the end of the day they need money, just like everybody else.

Notice how I never said they should give it away for free? Notice how I never insinuated they should be poor for doing what they love? I'd like to think, given a hypothetical world without money, they'd still be making games, if not as a job as a hobby. The key part of my post was that they don't do it for the money, that they do it for their passion. I don't expect them to go poor because they chose a job they love.

Also, just found out that these guys are the publishers. What an odd unevil and uncensorship stance for you to take in regards to this thread and the posters. I thought this was just a Western branch of the dev company, a la NcWest and NcSoft. (Yes I'm aware NcSoft is a publisher, but the point is they have a different team, albeit an incompetent one, for the Western releases.)